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Article by: John Bernatovicz — View more articles by John Bernatovicz

Posted on: September 23, 2020

HR Like a Boss: Tim Sackett Show Notes

What's the best way to launch a brand-new podcast and video series? With Tim Sackett. He's HR Famous after all. Tim Sackett knows all about HR and what it takes to put on a great corporate picnic. Watch or listen to hear his answers on how to do HR Like a Boss.

JOHN BERNATOVICZ: Hey, this is John Bernatovicz, I'm continuing my journey of writing the book, "HR Like A Boss" and I'm super excited today to be joined by Tim Sackett, a friend of mine that we connected through some HR technology presentations and various thought leadership and following him on his blog and all the fancy cool stuff that he does. So, Tim, thank you for joining me today.


TIM SACKETT: Thanks for having me.


JOHN: So Tim, I know there may not be a lot of people that are watching this now that don't know who you are, but maybe for those that don't, you wanna share a quick highlight of your career and your connection with the human resource field?


TIM: Yeah, so literally, I'm the CEO currently of a technical staffing firm out of Michigan, but we kind of do stuff all over the country. Been doing that the last 10 years or so. Before that corporate HR and corporate talent acquisition kind of positions, I have masters in HR.

And about 10 years ago, maybe a little bit more than 10 years ago, found a dude online that you and I both know, Kris Dunn, writing over at "Fistful of Talent" and "HR Capitalist". And I was in a corporate job that, one of those jobs where I immediately kind of understood that I made a bad kind of decision when I took the job, but you're in it, so you gotta make the best of it. Found Kris online, sent him a message about some blog he had written that was exactly what I was thinking, but couldn't say in a very political HR environment. And he said, "Hey, you just start writing for me," which I never even consider myself a writer or anything like that. But you know, he's like, "Come on, let's, you know, start writing "Fistful of Talent"." So I did that. And then he was like, "Hey, you're actually pretty good at this and got a lot to say. You should do your own blog."

So, we started that. And then the crazy thing happens where, you know, you start writing online and then people start thinking like, you actually know what you're talking about, or they wanna listen to you or whatever, the audience starts to grow. And then all of a sudden, one day you wake up and you're like, "Oh," you know, you're being invited to speak at conferences and do stuff. And I wrote a book that, you know, Sharon published and, it just turned into a completely parallel world of work. My wife says, "You have a second full time job," and it truly has become a second full time job. Something I love, like I never knew I'd love to write, but it turns out, you know, that it was great therapy for me and my HR education.


JOHN: How cool. Yeah. No, Dunn's a great guy. I appreciate the chance to meet up with him a few times and that that's inspirational. Right? Just gave you the little crack right of, "Hey, take a shot at this. Why don't you write?" And then turns out you're good at it. If I remember correctly, you write every day. Do you try to write every day or close to it?


TIM: Yeah, and that was Kris' challenge. So about two years into "Fistful Talent", writing for him, you know, I was writing like the Friday, kind of "Make Fun of HR" column every Friday, you know, make fun of what we do. And I was part of that so I could kind of make fun of myself but he's like, "Hey, you should try it." He was writing everyday and I go, "I just don't know if I could, man. That seems like a lot." You know? And he's like "Just try it for a year. We'll call it the Tim Sackett Project." And that was over nine years ago and I've been writing every day. So. I don't actually write everyday, I post everyday. Many times I will write on a Sunday or you know, some day I'll sit down and kick out two or three posts and then the scheduled amount. So, yeah. Monday through Friday there's something that goes up everyday. And then if I'm on vacation, I might rerun like some best of and stuff like that. Here's the crazy part, John, it's like, I didn't realize this until I was probably five or six years into writing, I could rerun a post I wrote three years ago and it will actually get more traffic the second time. It'll get more the third time, the fourth time 'cause the audience continues to grow and expand and then just the social presence in a lot of that stuff that you wrote, you know. Like if you think about like right now, there's stuff I wrote during the great recession that is completely applicable right now. It really hasn't changed, like how to find a job with high unemployment, you know, or things of that sort, or how to recruit, you know. In the challenges of recruiting, I mean, we think it's easier because there's more candidates. It's not, it's actually more difficult because there's more candidates. So stuff like that gets more traffic now, you know.

Looking for the video? Use the player above or watch it on YouTube.


JOHN: That's interesting. Yeah. Do you find, I know having listened to a lot of songwriters and kind of like, "How did you write this song?" They have like a sketchbook or nowadays their iPhone, does that happen to you? Like, are you in the shower and you're like, "Hey, wait a second. I gotta get out of here. I gotta write down."


TIM: You know, I have three sons. So we're always conscious of not like texting and driving, you know? 'Cause my go-to is to email myself and the subject line is just post and then whatever idea I have, and I do that. I mean, literally anywhere from five to 10 times a day, like I just constantly have things that I think of that I wanna do. And so now my wife, you know, when I'm driving with her, I'll constantly say, "Hey, email, me," and she already knows the deal. Like she just writes it. She doesn't even ask questions 'cause half the time it's like a partial thought that makes no sense. But, it will, for me. it will trigger me to think it through. And that's another thing that I learned, is like, I've never had writer's block or anything like that. Like I just, I, you know, and I constantly have ideas because I run into people that wanna blog like, "Oh, I wanna write, I wanna start a blog." And like 90 days into it, they're just like, "Oh c**p. I have nothing else to say." And I'm like, "Wow." Thankfully I've never had that issue. Like I've always f***ing find something to talk about. So.


JOHN: Yeah. Does your wife ever asks you, "Are you actually paying attention to driving right now?" Or just often you're in your blog space land just thinking?


TIM: The worst times are when it's right in the middle of a statement that she's like, so she's telling me and I'll go, "Hey, wait a minute, email me this right now." 'Cause then she either thinks she's the person who started the thought or I'm not listening to her. Either way, I'm in trouble. So.


JOHN: Both of those are bad. Yeah. Both of those are bad. Cool. Thanks for sharing. Keep it up. I know the community loves it and appreciate you bring in that. So thank you.


TIM: Yeah.


JOHN: So kinda going back to the, again, those days in that TA role or maybe practicing HR and obviously now, you know, you own a firm, you practice HR in that firm or maybe not directly as a primary responsibility, but in doing what you do. So how would you describe the purpose of human resources?


TIM: Yeah, it's an interesting question 'cause I think, you know, I, people always ask me, what do I like HR or TA better? 'Cause I've done both roles and you know, at a high level and even at a practitioner level. And I'm always like, "I love both." Like I loved all the aspects of HR, of training development, of employee relations of, you know, all of that kind of stuff, you know, the strategy behind it. But when I put all of that together and I think about HR as a big umbrella and say, "Okay, what's our main role?" I still think it comes down to HR's really main purpose is to increase the talent of the organization.

Now easily, you could connect dots and go, "Oh, well that's TA because they're bringing talent in." But no, think about developing the talent you have, think about retaining the talent you have, think about all the aspects. For me, it's all about how do we increase the talent because if we just maintain, then our competition is going to pass us. So we have to figure out as HR leaders, how do we increase the talent of the organization constantly? And that's every role. If I'm a benefits administrator, I'm figuring out how do I develop the best benefits package in the world? If I'm a comp analyst, how do I ensure that we have, you know, leading comp practices? It's every single aspect of HR is how do I increase the talent of our organization?


JOHN: Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah. And I think that if I interpret what you're saying, it's not just like getting more people, obviously. It's just getting more out of them, more connection to the purpose of the company so that they feel, you know, their purpose-driven work ethic at the same time that they're delivering more to the company, right? In theory or the business.


TIM: Yep. Definitely.


JOHN: That's cool. So, as a relation to success with that, how would you describe like success from an HR perspective or what you do every day.


TIM: I'm pretty critical on HR and TA leaders about the subjective measurements we've used in the past. I'm not a fan of all of that, right? I don't think like hiring manager satisfaction or I will even say employee engagement to me is kind of a misused metric of success. But I'm a data guy and I love HR data and we have so much of it and I think we can take a look at how we drive success through really strong black and white data initiatives, right? Whether that's higher retention, whether that's, you know, increase or utilization of our benefit plans, you know, whatever that might be. There's so many hard pieces of data that shows whether we're doing a great job of what we do and how we administer the programs and processes of all the stuff that we do in HR. You know, I think too often we allow ourselves to go, "Oh, we get into those executive kind of comp plans and we're building out like our bonus for the year." And again, I've been in part of this, so I understand where it comes from. But too often I take a look and say, "Oh my gosh, so I'm going to meet my, I mean, maybe 150% of my bonus plan this year for my director level HR role." And I take a look at it and go, "I knew that before I even started the year," because the reality is it was so subjective that I knew I was gonna make it. And then to me, that's how we fail, right? And so if you describe success, to me, success that is really around the hard measures that will actually impact the bottom line of the business that go back to the P and L, that go back to our financials and go, "Wait a minute, we did this. We decreased this or we increase this," and thus, I can go back and make a dotted line to where that had an impact on the financials.


JOHN: Hmm. Yeah. And it's a profound part of the book. One of the things that I've noticed is, I think it's imperative everybody inside the company, not just HR, everybody understands how the financial performance of the company works. Like how do we make money and how do we lose money? Because when we make money, there'll be more of it to spread around whether it's to you or others. And when we lose money, wait a second, then we have to make changes that could potentially impact, you know, a line worker's job or a CFO's job or everything in between.


TIM: Yeah. So I think so often as leaders, we're scared to really share gross profit and net income, all that stuff with employees, 'cause we think they won't be able to process and understand it. They'll just think, "Oh, well, if the company's gross profit was $1,000,000,000 I should get a raise." And then, you know, and then you go, " "Well, you know, we're running negative net income," you know, like. And so, I think we can paint that picture. And again, if you're a leader and you go, "Hey, we have a gross profit of $1,000,000,000 and we have a net income of 750,000,000," well then you better have a good explanation of why that person can't get a raise, you know?


JOHN: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Check out the owner's house, right? And and his billion dollar yacht that he or she owns. So, cool. Is there a particular time you talked about the financial performance and kind of driving those results and increasing the talent to do that? Is there a time in your career where you saw that impact on some of the results that you drove or a client that you work with or an experience that you can point to?


TIM: Yeah. You know, I think for me, I took my position working for a large health system in Michigan, right before the great recession. And then the great recession hit and you had an extended period of time of just really kind of good financial times. And you had so many leaders that were, probably their entire leadership career was during good financial times. And all of a sudden the worst financial time let's hope right, of our lifetime hit them. And there was a major struggle around understanding head count and staffing and overtime utilization and contractor use and all. Like we really, I mean, we went through an entire education around financials that they just truly never understood.

At the same time before that job I was with Applebee's, right, in an HR role. And I was constantly dealing with like restaurant managers, really trying to understand staffing levels and spend, you know, because again, you're trying to make a profitable restaurant. And what I always thought, like, again, I was just, it was newer in my kind of knowledge of financials as an HR person and so it was all about cutting expense, cutting expense, cutting expense.

And I had a really good VP of operations that I traveled with that helped really teach me the financials of that industry and really ultimately, every industry that's similar, whether that's hospitality, whether that's fine dining, whether that's service, was the concept of Tim, you staff for the business you want, not the business you have, because you can staff yourself out of business. If you think about, if you continue to reduce staffing because your business is going down, eventually there's gonna be nobody in your building and no one's going to be, no one's coming to see, you know, buy or eat, whatever you have, anything like that.

And so it's this concept of having to spend a little money to make money, but in the right ways, right? You can't just be, "Oh, we're gonna have four hostesses on a Monday night," and you have four families show up to eat at your restaurant. That's obviously not a good way, but at the same time, you don't want to have anybody to have bad customer service. Thus, they're not gonna come back. They're gonna tell their family and their friends about it and it's just this death spiral downward. And so you constantly have to be cautious about not cutting yourself to the part where you can't, and even in my own business, within the, you know, the staffing and TA world is, it's another thing I think I take, you knew, I both deal with a lot of HR teams and TA teams where they'll go, "Well, you can either shop that out or you can hire somebody." You know, there's this constant give and take of when's the right time to do that. There's no great answer, but I think you have to really understand the impact of what we do on the bottom line financials.


JOHN: Yeah, sure. Yeah. Which is a significant premise of the book too, of driving those business results, kind of being a business leader first, that just so happens to practice HR. And speaking of that, so from the characteristics of those that stand out to you that have done that, I know obviously you've practiced human resources and TA, you presented to the community, you've deliver that work today, you banter with some of them in your Twitter feed, which I'm sure there's a spirit at a time. What makes as a stand out HR pro to you?


TIM: I think for me, it's always about people that have an interest in one is understanding what the business actually does, how they make money, or how they survive. You don't have to know how to do it. You have to understand what it is in whatever organization you're supporting. If you're an HR VP and you're supporting operations, are you spending time in the operations to understand the real world aspects? And again, you don't have to be able to do it. If you're, if you're supporting IT, I don't need you to know how to code. I need you to know the life of a coder that lives in your organization to really be able to understand how do you help them impact that person to perform better, you know, ultimately, you know, to help your organization perform better. And so for me, it's having that, it's an innate desire to want to be more involved at a higher level in the organization. It's not just, "Oh, I'm an HR and I have these three processes that I'm responsible for. And I just have to ensure that they're done and then I'm gonna clock out at the end of the day and I'm gonna go home and never think about it." It's somebody that has a broader, I think, not just, it's not knowledge, it's just a desire to be a part of the business in a broader way.


JOHN: Yeah. Which kind of leads into the premise, not the premise, that kind of concept of the book is about thinking differently, being different and taking action and just looking at your role differently, immersing yourself in the business, as you mentioned. So is there anything that you can encourage the HR folks to do? I know you said kind of driving those kind of P and L business results, but anything specifically that you might suggest?


TIM: Yeah. You know, I think some of it, and I got this from my time on the corporate side of HR is to be humble. So often I find that HR people, you know, we get a bad rap sometimes in the organization and partly because I think they come across as a little bit as formal power hungry. I'm an HR. And thus, because I'm an HR, there's a legal aspect to this and I'm gonna use my title and I'm gonna use my function as a hammer, as a weapon to, against somebody in the organization that's not doing exactly what I think you should be doing versus going, "Hey, as a real business partner, my role is to advise you of risk and then help you to help you through the decision you're gonna make."

So if I say, "Hey, there's a 25% chance if you do this we're going to get sued." Then as a leader, you still might decide, "Okay, we're gonna make that decision. Okay, let me set us up the most success possible. Just in case it goes down that path, there's a 75% chance we're not going to get sued. Great. So, but you know, let's have all that." It's not to say there's a 25% chance we're gonna get sued and so I'm not going to allow you to do this, or, you know, because legally we can't, right? We start using these words and this language around HR stuff constantly, that's not necessarily exactly true, but we use it as a weapon. And I think that's one of those things that we have to start looking differently.

For me, that's kind of being humble.

It's kinda being able to understand, you know, where your role is and how to help versus, you know, how to hurt and ultimately be willing to fill a void, be willing to step in and take care of stuff that nobody else is willing to do. I'll go back to like the health system. When I was there, we were going and making a transition to electronic medical records, EMR. And again, clearly, a major IT project where you had to pull in every single function of the organization from nurses to physical therapist to psychiatrist or whatever, to be able to make this happen. And ultimately it touched every part of the people world. And so we were sitting in a big board room and they're like literally a group of 50 leaders in the health system and CEO's going, " Hey, I need somebody to step up and take the leadership role on this." And everyone's looking at IT, that guy, knowing that he was completely overwhelmed, was not raising his hand, was not making eye contact. And I'm like, "We'll do it." And everyone's kind of like, "Wait a minute. We don't need no, like, Tim, wait. Well, it has to be somebody else." And ultimately I explained why I thought it should be us. And they're like, "Okay, you got it." You know, and so again, stepping into the void that, you know, I think the organization there's so many times. You know, John, you and I both know, like the joke in HR is, well, we don't plan the company picnic, you know? And I'm like, "Why? Why wouldn't you plan a company picnic?" We're the best people to do that, right? And we should, we should wanna do that. We should have fun with that, we should. You know, again, is am I being defined by my ability to plan a company picnic? Well, yeah. If I'm crappy at it, I'm gonna be defined.


JOHN: You're right.


TIM: Be good at it. Be great at it. Run the best company picnic you ever had. Instead we try to throw it off on somebody cause we think that's not strategic. And you're just like, "Oh." I just can't stand that kind of mentality.


JOHN: Yeah. No, that makes sense. Yeah. Do you think that kind of heavy hand or kind of using the power that HR can have as a weapon is partially why you think that the non HR community dislikes HR?


TIM: 100%, 100%? I think it's, I think every single day in HR, you carry around an AK 47. And the question is, are you gonna use it or not? Or are you going to use your influence to get the decisions? And you know, in the relationships to get the, you know, I can always go, "Hey, there's a legal aspect of this and I'm not gonna lie to do it. I'm gonna bring council in," knowing that council's always gonna go to the most risk adverse, you know, decision and, you know, blah, blah, blah. But the reality is I burned the relationship and I'm using zero influence to make that happen. And I think so for me, it's, you know, if I, you know, what is it? The ice cube that says today was a good day. I didn't have to use my AK, right? I'm like in HR, it's a great day if you never have to use your AK, right? If you never have to bring out the legal aspects of your job that formal power that you have, it's a great day.


JOHN: Yeah. So interesting you share that 'cause when I first did this presentation, it was at the Northern Ohio HR Conference and I put a warning up before the slide came that I hate HR, right? It was like, "I hate HR," and I was trying to create a dialogue and I was worried. It was like early on in the presentation. And I was worried like, they're going to boo me off the stage and say, "John, you got some stage left time to leave." And honest to God, Tim, we spent 15 minutes. I had 90% of the room raising their hand. Let me tell you why people hate us. And they went real personal, like zingers to many of these people about. And I had, at some point I hear guys like, "We got a real decision or else I'm not going to get the rest of the content done that I know you're here hopefully to hear some of it." And it was a ton of spirit around that question and they feel it every day. And to your point, if people think you're walking around carrying a gun in your analogy and you can take me out anytime you want, that's a real tough way to create a relationship with somebody that's doing that. Right?


TIM: Yeah. You know, I did, I have a presentation that I do and the basis of the presentation was done over a couple of hundred interviews with CEOs, COOs, like high level C-suite executives and understanding what was it that, you know, why did they really, you know, kind of dislike HR, what do they think HR could do better and all of that background. And it's one of the bigger ones brought up was, you know, it's just, you know, they think HR is unbending and it's because HR tends to wanna treat everybody the same. And they, in that same vein of saying, "Oh, well, we have to treat everybody the same. Legally, Tim, we have to treat everybody the same." And then you're like, wait a minute. Actually, no, there's nothing legal that says you have to treat everybody the same. You can't treat anybody, you know, unequal, right? But if I'm a top performer and I'm a CEO, and this is why I think C-suite really doesn't like HR, if you're a C-suite, you've been a high performer, your entire career, you've moved up, thus you've been treated differently. And when they look at an HR person that says, "Well, we have to treat everybody exactly the same." They look at you like you're a moron because they know that's not the truth. They know that's not the case. Plus if I'm an executive that wants to dry high performance, I wanna treat my high performers better than the walking dead in my organization, right? You better not treat them exactly the same. Now, are there ways that we have to treat employees the same in certain things? Of course, but that's very narrow. And then we have this big range of things that we can do and should be doing to reward those best and brightest in our organization. And I think HR comes across as complete morons when they try to act like, "Oh, everybody has to be treated the same. So we can't do that for Tim. But we, you know, if we can't, if we can't do it for John."


JOHN: Right? Yeah, no, I get it. Yeah. And check out your local NBA roster to see the pay salary and output of production. The problem is, when you get those large contracts and tail end of a contract for those players that are still sitting on it. But anyway, yeah, just a few more questions, Tim.


TIM: Sure.


JOHN: You've been kind of growing up in the TA world and, you know, focusing, I know your book to that community. And I'm curious if in this, this may be unfair, maybe you do have a silver bullet question, but is there one, one particular question that you like to ask or kind of series of questions that helps you increase that talent within your company or your client's companies?


TIM: Well, there's definitely one silver bullet question I ask for new people coming in. You know, and for me, it's I wanna understand 'cause here's what we get, right, it doesn't matter the title, right? So let's say it's for an HR VP, I'm interviewing an HR VP role. I have an HR VP with experience coming into interview and I'll sit there and say, "Tell me about HR. Tell me about what, you know, intrigues you about HR. What energizes you about HR?" And they're like, "Oh my God, Tim HR is my life." I'm like, "Oh, wow, great. So talk to me about that. What do you do outside of the actual job to show me HR is your life?" And then they go, "Well, Tim, I come to work every day." "Uh huh, and?" "Well I used to be a member of SHRM. Not anymore, but I used to be." "So basically HR is your life because you come to an HR job every day?" "No, no." I wanna know if you're truly passionate about that job, whether that's HR, accounting it or whatever. There's things you do outside your life. You and I, I mean are great examples. Like we get involved with disrupt HR. We get involved with, you know, local HR communities and bringing things together. You write a book, I wrote a book. I mean, that's being involved in having passion around the function that you've decided to, you know, to go after in your life. Now, is everybody gonna have that? No, but the best talent does, man. It comes out like a giant like beam of light.


JOHN: Yeah, no, it's funny you say that I'm actually reading right now "Unstoppable" by Dave Anderson. I don't know if you've seen that book, but it talks about the four types of performers, game changers, play makers, undertakers, and caretakers, and huge section of the book about passion, enthusiasm, attitude. And he's just trying to find game-changers, that's all I want in my team are game changers.


TIM: And people will give you excuses, right? Like, "Oh, well I'm a single mom that's, you know, doing this and doing this and I don't have time. But if I had time, I would do those things." I literally just was on a podcast with a single mom, with three kids who is not only running the podcast, she's still doing in full time, HR job. She's in the midst of writing a book. Like don't give me that crap, right? It depends on if again, you're probably not doing it because it's not your passion. And that's fine, I get that. But don't tell me it's your life, you know?


JOHN: Yeah. My dad would always say, "If you really wanna do something, you'd find time for it. Don't tell me I don't have time for it." Right?


TIM: So, so true. Yeah.


JOHN: So if you, if you could go back to that younger Tim Sackett, you know, fresh out of college, starting your career, is there a particular piece of advice that you would have given yourself then knowing what you know now?


TIM: Yeah. You know, I think the hardest thing for me to grasp in my career, it took me a long time to really come to grips with it was that concept of you're going to have people around you that aren't as passionate about performance or aren't as passionate about the job as you are, or the company or whatever that might be, right? And that's not a bad thing. They're not a waste of space or they're not bad people or whatever that might be. And I know early on, as a leader in my career, I burned some people out because I didn't think that they had the same expectations as me and thus, they must be bad performers and they're not. It's still so hard to separate that, right? Like as you and I, as business owners are constantly in that road of, "It's okay that they come in and do their job and perform well." They don't have to be an A-player. The world needs B-player as well. You know? And for the longest time I couldn't accept that. I'm like, no, no, no. Everybody has to be an A-player or they're awful. And so I think having that understanding and calm me down a little bit probably would have, you know, maybe kept some people and maybe even help them reach levels of A-player, right? Because again, some of that, again, could be time in life, could be they're not sure yet what they want, who knows? But, you know, it's understanding as a leader, the entire team is never going to have the same passion you have of whatever that might be, that vision you have for yourself and your team.


JOHN: Yeah. No, that's good, profound. Last question, bud. How would you describe someone that does HR like a boss?


TIM: I would say they're charismatic. But you know, I take away that because you and I both know some introverts I think, that are really good in the HR realm, but they know how to, so maybe it's relationship building, they know how to build a real good lasting relationship where they can leverage that when needed. They don't need it all the time. They're not asking to move it all the time, but it's there. they're giving for those individuals where they have that relationship. And ultimately they're focused on the outcomes of the business versus the outcomes of HR. And I think ultimately that it's so hard, I think to, because often then we have to give up some things in HR that we're so, you know, kind of concerned about. And when I was at Applebee's our leadership team called it, the A, you have to give up your A card, right? So if you think of the things that you have to do in your life, you have, you know, decisions that will be made for you. That's a C card. You have decisions that you will make jointly with other people or one other person that's a B card. And then there's decisions you get to make all by yourself. That's the A card. And there's so few of those decisions we get to make by ourselves. And so it's super hard for us to give those up in an HR and an organization. It's super hard for us to give those up. So being able to give that A card away will increase your influence. And I think if I think of like HR like a boss, those individuals who are willing to give up that A card, knowing that it's gonna come back to them in spades, that's probably all I can ask for.


JOHN: Yeah. Seems counterintuitive in some respects, right? And that.


TIM: For sure, yeah.


JOHN: Hey Tim, you're good, man. I appreciate you taking the time. I know you kind of, the purpose of HR in your mind is to increase that talent and continue to get great people that come into the organization that you as HR pro are leading to be humble in that. And just be real careful about the power and responsibility that we in HR have and make sure to use that in a very careful and thought provoking way that drives business results. So definitely appreciate you taking the time.


TIM: Thanks for having me, John.H